
On November 29th of 2011, a women-only beer tasting event was held at the Supreme Bean in Eugene, Oregon. This event was promoted on the Brewpublic blog as a “Beer Tasting and Discussion,” and featured special guests Alison Grayson (Producer/Director of the femme-centric ‘The Love of Beer’ documentary), Erin Kemplin (Stone Brewing rep), and Em Sauter (founder of Pints and Panels). According to the event listing, minors were welcome. Why not men? I have always most enjoyed inclusive beer events where women, men, and all those in between are enjoying beer together. To be told there is a public beer event that I am not allowed to attend based on my gender identity or physical structure was maddening. For a community that impressed me most by its inclusionary, laid-back, and overall friendly nature, this seemed like the antithesis of Portland beer culture.

I made my way over to Brewpublic to post a critical comment underneath the promotional event listing and noticed that someone had already done it. Ashley Routson (aka ‘The Beer Wench’) had left the following opinionated response:

My opinion was reinforced, and I was glad to be sharing a viewpoint on this issue with a seemingly intelligent, open-minded woman. In an effort to expose the other side of this issue, I sought out Grayson, one of the event’s special guests, to educate myself in the benefits of such community division.
In Grayson’s opinion, “Beer can be an intimidating beverage.” She finds these women-only events to be situations which “provide women with a warm, perceptually safe environment for them to enter a beer bar, talk to a friendly beertender, and start learning about beer.” She believes that the women who attend these events enjoy the opportunity to “educate other women, share beer, and have their own night.” I understand the desire to want a night out with the girls, but Grayson’s use of the phrase “perceptually safe” was troubling. Does the presence of a man at a craft beer bar indicate danger? Routson believes that “[this] is more of a personal problem than a direct fault of the craft beer industry.” I brought this up to Ezra Johnson-Greenough of The New School blog, who responded with the following comment:
“Are you telling them that they have to drink around only other women to be comfortable? How is that helping matters? Teri Fahrendorf hinted at this in [an] interview that perhaps the best way to promote women to drink craft beer is not marketing specific beer to them or creating exclusive groups but making them feel comfortable and welcome… Go out and have a beer and sit at the bar like any other guy might.”
If comfort and safety are really the issues here, why aren’t these groups hand-picking acceptable men? I’d happily submit to a background check or interview in order to gain the acceptance and trust of the female members of the Portland beer cognoscenti. The philosophical answers that I encountered while interviewing this varied group made me think there was more exclusionary business going on than I had initially imagined. I never really thought twice about local ladies’-based beer club LOLA (Ladies of Lagers and Ales) being totally exclusionary until Johnson-Greenough dropped the following bomb on me:
“I heard about the group forming and I am friends with many of the women that were in the group and I thought it sounded like a great fun idea. My original impression or what I was told was that it was just a social beer group for women and nothing about exclusivity. I asked a couple of my friends (Amy Welch, Nicole Kasten, Alison Grayson) in the group about coming to a meeting and they all thought it was a great idea. Then after apparently bringing the issue up in a meeting or on the groups forums or something they came back to me saying that I was denied… Once I was told I could come to a meeting but I had to dress in drag.”

If Johnson-Greenough’s comments are indeed correct, LOLA’s brand of ‘exclusivity’ is bordering dangerously on sexism. I attempted to join LOLA’s forum on Facebook in early December to elicit some responses to this accusation, but have not been granted access. Perhaps my attempt to give them a fair say here was hindered by their lack of male acceptance. Or maybe they’re still mad at me for jokingly creating DONG (Dudes of Northwest Grog).
Back in early 2010, I was enjoying some fine ales with friends at a neighborhood bar when the LOLA crew arrived to hold a meeting. It was made clear to me that the area of the bar designated for their meeting was not to be violated, and I was not welcome to join in their beer sharing.
At the time, I thought my rejection was only a product of my lack of prior commitment. Angelo De Ieso of Brewpublic has had a similar experience: “I've been asked to leave a few places where women were to gather for meetings. I respect these people's wishes, though I don't necessarily think that men need to be excluded or silenced in order to empower the position of women in our community of craft beer.” Frustrated, I briefly entertained the idea of creating a male-only tasting group. I went as far as designing a logo, but no actual meetings or enlistment ever occurred. The reaction I received upon sharing the initial concept of DONG was so overwhelmingly negative and a lesson was learned. De Ieso was one of the biggest critics of DONG at that time, enforcing what he referred to as “feelings and interests I felt obligated to protect for personal reasons.” Having almost been through the experience of becoming a total hypocrite, I imagined there must be other local men-only beer groups or events, so I checked.I came up a bit short. This is all that I found after hours of scouring the Oregon beer scene:

And after checking in to it deeper, turns out women were also welcome (and actually encouraged). All of this negativity just seems to go towards bolstering a simple statement that Johnson-Greenough made to me, “Starting an exclusive group is sort of like building a wall around yourself.”

Article contributors: (l to r) Ezra Johnson-Greenough, Alison Grayson, Angelo De Ieso, Ashley Routson
You’ve got women like Grayson, and the decision-makers at LOLA, who appear to foster this exclusionary behavior in order to fully enjoy their personal craft beer experience, yet Grayson herself doesn’t encounter a biased world. “Occasionally, you still find the rare person who thinks that beer and brewing is a man’s place, but that’s definitely not the norm.” Still, “as a woman, going to a bar by yourself isn’t a particularly positive experience.” In my opinion, it all goes back to the “personal problems” referenced by Routson. Perhaps I choose to surround myself with the inclusionary people; those who have found their places as valuable community members, those who do not rely on the crutch of segregation. I would understand if the Portland-area craft beer scene was a big, woman-hatin’ boys club. And if I thought it was, I’d say so. I can assure you that it is not. In general, Routson agrees: “not one single man in this industry has ever talked down to me because of being a woman.” Making her mark as an bold, opinionated, often-audacious, and well-informed female may help. Perhaps the bias in the beer world is reserved for all newbs, and it’s those with a thin skin that need to be held up by their peers.
It’s difficult to neatly conclude my thoughts here. I’d prefer for you, as the reader, to form your own conclusions and encourage discussions surrounding this topic. I’ll leave you with a question that Johnson-Greenough posed to those involved in women-only groups and events:
“What is your objective as a group? Is it to promote craft beer to women? Or is your goal to be a [women-only] social group? [If] you want to have girls’ night I don’t think anyone would think twice about it. But your promoting exclusivity.. is promoting a separation between the sexes.”
Is this where we are heading?
Some images have been liberated from various facebook accounts, and some screenshots taken from brewpublic.com. Used freely under the Freedom and Innovation Revitalizing United States Entrepreneurship Act of 2007. All original content is copyright 2011 Portland Beer and Music.
I like drinking with men and women and have no issue going to a bar by myself. I'm in agreement that if someone has difficulty doing this or feels threatened, then that is their personal problem. As for your issue with LOLA, I think you could have done more than attempting to join the group, being denied and not giving them the chance to respond directly to you.
ReplyDeleteKris,
ReplyDeleteI tried to join the group when it first started and there has been more than enough time to respond! The basic gist of it was, no men allowed.
I feel that you were referring to my attempt to join their facebook group, but I think Ezra's story confirms what I was already suspecting. I encourage members of LOLA to comment here- this comment forum is open to them and nothing reasonable will be removed.
ReplyDeleteThis post is as ridiculus as saying that the NAACP or National Council of La Raza contribute to segregation.
ReplyDeleteI'd wager that this post is not representative of most men, but most likely driven by one that thinks he needs to be involved in every single Portland beer event and often bashes those events he is not involved in on his blog - yeah, I'm talking about you Ezra.
It's really simple - we hang out with you all the time and we have other friends we like to hang out with as well. It would be great if we could hang out with our friends without being bashed in front of our husbands or boyfriends (yes Ezra we hear about that too) or on a blog (but kudos to you for being public about it).
I, too, have pondered and blogtificated on this notion of girls, beer, and girly beers. http://beersoup.allaboutbeer.com/2011/08/women-in-beer-are-we-still-talking-about-this/ I think it's safe to say that no one wants more women involved in craft beer--both on the brewing side and the consumer side--than boys.
ReplyDeleteAs a transgendered person I too have my own beer group. Recently I founded Transgendered Beer Drinkers, TBD for short. Our motto is to only drink beer that does not fit into any of the BJCP style guidelines.
ReplyDeletedecline2state,
ReplyDeletewha? This post is written by Jim not by me, I was merely asked for my opinion on the subject. Second what weird tangent are you going off on that I bash events I am not involved in? Perhaps you dont read my site but I promote events I am not involved in on a weekly basis and rarely bash any events. I bet you can only recall a handful of events I have ever bashed. A cursory look at my blog shows more than 10 events I have promoted in the month of December, a few of which I have been involved with and no event bashing posts. Get in touch with reality.
And I really have no clue what your talking about about being bashed in front of husbands or boyfriends. ? But I get what your saying that you want to hang out with others, and that makes sense if its just a ladies night out not some exclusive official beer group.
I had the opportunity to "join" LOLA way back when it was a small group of women just hanging out - before it even had a name. I went to a few LOLA get-togethers, thought it was fun and that it was a great group of women. I remember when Ezra asked if he could come to a LOLA meeting and was so surprised when he was told that he could if he dressed up like a woman. I dont really know Ezra at all, but was embarrassed to be associated with a group that wouldn't allow someone to join a group because of their gender. That was around the time I stopped going. I kind of found the whole thing to be strange and was weirded out by the exclusivity of it all.
ReplyDeleteI like hanging out with all of the beer guys in Portland. I like hanging out with their wives, girlfriends, friends who are girls, etc., that is, when they decide to come out to beer events. I wish more women would come out and wonder why they don't. I find the Portland beer community to be the most welcoming and lovely group of people I've ever met and have never, ever felt unsafe.
Just my two cents.
to comment on decline2state's response.. i often disagree with ezra and was skeptical about even asking him to be a part of this. i knew he had a story to tell but may bring some differing opinions. in the end, the risk was worth the reward and i think his story is a useful one, albeit NOT the focus of my article.
ReplyDeleteI think it is kind of silly, ok really silly. For this day and age it is like a step backward.
ReplyDeleteBut... if it has enough support, attendance, and gets more people, sorry women, in to craft beer then they should do it.
I will just be depressed. Not because I can't go, but because I look ridiculous in a dress.
Having been there when Ezra was asked to dress as a woman, I can tell you that it was a JOKE! Speaking for myself only, I enjoy meeting with the LOLA ladies because at any given beer event it is very common to be the only woman in the place and it is nice to be able to discuss beer with other women. No big feminist agenda here.
ReplyDelete@unknown.. as i learned, joking about such matters can be dangerous and misinterpreted (*see DONG reference above). when these sensitive issues are involved, it may be best to be straight forward. did anyone go back to Ezra and tell him it was a joke? Did they extend a post-joke invite? Or was the joke just a way to cover up the awkwardness of outright discrimination?
ReplyDelete@Roy- I just realized that my google profile picture is me in a dress. Looks like I'm ready for the next meeting..?
ReplyDeleteHm. I am a woman, and I go to a LOT of beer events in Portland. I have never felt like an outsider, and have definitely never been the only woman attending. Maybe there are more men than women, but I am always too busy enjoying beer to count heads.
ReplyDeleteJim, thank you very much for completely misrepresenting me when I took my personal time to honestly respond to your interview questions. I'm sorry I had mistook you for a journalist and trusted you with my opinion. As someone who deals wih interviewing people and strives to represent people accurately, i find it shameful that you would use my words so extremely out of context. I made it very clear that I do not think that no one should be excluded but I understand why these events appeal to certain women and therefore I find it hard to be strictly opposed to something that introduces people to beer. I was involved in the 16 Tons tasting because I was an invited guest. I did not coordinate, plan, or have any other involvement beyond that, and I did not realize it would be womens only until a few days before the event. The event was coordinated, to my knowledge, by their male owner. Men were not turned away and there were several men in the establishment during the event.
ReplyDeleteI'm currently writing this from the road, and I will gladly post the full interview you pretended to conduct with me In a few hours. There's a difference between editing something for brevity and completely altering their intent by taking it out of context. I hope that spreadig misleading rumors has helped the popularity of your blog.
I'll beat you to it:
ReplyDeleteHere is an unedited excerpt from where I drew most of my quotes:
"That said, I do understand the draw for Women Only events. If you've never been to a beer bar, you're not going to know that typically, they have a very different atmosphere than any other kind of bar. Beer can be an intimidating beverage- not only are there so many styles, but there's so much variation within a style that it's hard to know what you'll get when you try something new. It has a well driven media and recent social history of being a "man's drink". Most bartenders aren't particularly interested in educating their clients about beer, and generally speaking, as a woman, going to a bar by yourself isn't a particularly positive experience. Also, if you've never tried anything other than the giant macrobeers, you'll probably never have any desire to go into a beer bar unless a specific event brings you in. Women Only events can provide women with a warm, perceptually safe environment for them to enter a beer bar, talk to a friendly beertender, and start learning about beer, and realizing that their local beer bar probably is a very, very different place than their local dive bar, and that craft beer is a very different beverage than what they thought it was. I know many women who enjoy Women Only events as an opportunity to educate other women, share beer, and have their own night. Yes, I prefer all inclusive events, but if a Women's Only event is what it takes for someone to learn that they like beer, how can I be against that?"
I don't feel that you were misrepresented at all.
An unedited excerpt is not an unedited answer. The part of the question that was left out:
ReplyDelete"1. You are involved in the women-only tasting at Supreme Bean in Eugene. What is the thinking behind excluding the men?
The events and screenings that I personally set up are always open to all genders, but I have been involved in other's Women Only events such as the recent 16 Tons tasting. People have contacted us to screen The Love of Beer at their Women Only events, and we're more than honored to be screened for their audiences.
I don't think that gender defines someone's hobbies, interests, or theatrical taste, and we have just as many male fans as female. I don't even think that someone's physical anatomy defines their gender, if you want to go down that path. The film is about great people in the beer industry who happen to be women. For example, being a woman has nothing to do with Tonya Cornett's brewing abilities--it just makes her a minority in a male dominated field. Passion and drive are wonderful things, and there's no shortage of either in the women of the beer industry".
I was asked to answer "what is the thinking behind excluding the men?". I answered as best as I could to explain the mindset of those who coordinated the event, those who coordinate other Women-Only events, and those who attend. I am for doing whatever it takes to get people, including women, into trying beer and these events can provide a first step for someone who wouldn't have gotten there otherwise, hence understanding the draw and realizing it is not a black and white issue. Understanding and not being fully against something does not make me an advocate for women only events, yet your article clearly states otherwise. How can you seriously believe that you represented me fairly?
If you've spent any extensive time in the beer industry, you know there are proportionately a lot more dudes than ladies. And that's fine! We love dudes.
ReplyDeleteBut occasionally ladies want to hang out as a group and talk shop. Approach the craft and the industry as an outsider. Learn new things together. Make friends. Talk about inflammatory female issues, politics, gossip, or anything else that strays off of the path of beer. It's not like we exclude men and beer entirely and that this is the only social commitment we have in our lives.
Is this REALLY about a group of like-minded women getting together and enjoying beer on occasion, or the fact that you can't join? IT'S JUST A GROUP. FOR FUN. We have a good time, we drink beer, we brew beer, we meet new people, we learn new things. That's it! Such a non-issue.
"I answered as best as I could to explain the mindset of those who coordinated the event, those who coordinate other Women-Only events, and those who attend."
ReplyDeleteMaybe you should focus on your own opinions and not try to speak for others. Your answers are clearly a reflection, at least partially, of your beliefs and are appropriately quoted as such.
How dare you question my integrity, especially as a fellow 'journalist'. Your doubletalk is taking away from your credibility, frankly.
I agree with Ms. Sassypants. This whole discussion is kind of ridiculous. It's just women drinking and brewing beer together, for fun. What's wrong with that?
ReplyDeleteAs a beer blogger/promoter in Oregon, you should just be glad that we like beer and are happy to spend our money on beer and beer-related events. Get over it.
Jim, I made it clear that I prefer events that are not gender specific and that I do not personally coordinate women only events. I then went on to answer your question: "What is the mindset behind excluding the men?". I apologize that I answered the question I was asked -- "What is THE mindset". Given the knowledge that I do not exclude men, I felt it was fairly obvious that my response was reflective of those who are in favor of these events. I was asked for "the perspective of people in your position". My position is that of a filmmaker who represents herself, along with a movie that represents the thoughts and opinions of dozens of respected community members. My answer was formed from discussions I've had with those who attend women only events, those who coordinate them, beer veterans, and those new to beer. In following questions, you asked me to speak for others with "Have you or anyone you know had any gender-related issues integrating into the local beer culture? If so, please tell me about them". I was asked to speak on behalf of others in one question, but critiqued for doing so in another.
ReplyDeleteI asked questions, used your answers, and tried to encourage discussion. Beyond that, this is quickly descending into you scrambling to justify your quotes which frankly were pretty harmless and even keeled. Why spend your time slinging insults when you could get past this phantom misrepresentation and join the discussion??
ReplyDeleteSort of late getting to this and I could just say "ditto" to Madam Von Sassypants (stellar name, by the way). It was enlightening to visit England recently and see how pubs are almost entirely bereft of women. There are a few hardy souls in there, but mainly it's a bunch of old duffers. When women do make their way toward booze, it's almost always wine.
ReplyDeleteThey're sort of screwed. It's become a cultural thing--men go hang out at pubs and drink beer; women drink wine. I now get why Coors is trying to sell "chick beer" that looks like wine. Contrast that to the issue Nicole cites--women trying to hang at pubs alone. I have no idea what it's like to be a female beer fan, but I do know that the beer world is enormously masculine, and I wouldn't be shocked to learn that a woman might like a moment to enjoy beer in a chromosome y-free setting.
This stuff happens all the time as a minority group is trying to become a part of the majority--they band together until no one realizes it was ever an issue. I think we're getting close to that stage in Portland, but until I walk into a brewhouse and regularly see at least one woman, I'm going to go ahead and assume we've got some work.
Men have total access to beer, breweries, and brewing. There are few sectors in society as disproportionately male. If groups of women want to hold women-only meetings, I say knock yourselves out. It's certainly not affecting my access to beer, breweries, or brewing.
As a woman, a mother, a lover, a craft beer geek, a business woman, and a craft beer blogger/promoter myself, I am finding myself torn between these two arguments. The fact is, our genders ARE different. And what wonderful and functional differences we have! To try and ignore these differences, is clearly impossible, and even down right ignorant. Sure, we also all have individual personalities, ways of expressing ourselves, groups we feel most comfortable hanging out with, talents, etc. Gender differences are not the only box in existence, and it wont be that last.
ReplyDeleteBut are they really boxes? Could you tell an LGBTQ group that you should be given the right to participate in their meetings or face accusations of discrimination? Sure. But the LGBTQ group (who's purpose is most likely a support conduit for others experiencing the same life transitions) would certainly wind up changing their focus in a way that may in fact negatively impact the groups clear purpose: to discuss issues, and provide helpful hints to cope this those issues. Sure, that may be an extreme case, but I find it no different.
Is it better to ignore our amazing differences? Pretend they do not exist? Act as though we are a melting pot of souls that experience life in exactly the same way, and yes, that includes craft beer? Certainly you would not deny that we have inexcusable nuances: men jerk off differently, women menstruate, guys wear jock straps, women get pregnant.
So wouldn't that also inspire the notion that we both talk to one another from a varying perspective of understanding? Cause I'm telling you, from my perspective of course, theres a time and a place to discuss pregnancy stretch marks (for example). And the way I approach the subject, changes depending on who I am speaking to. But if I'm looking for helpful hints about how to improve their visibility on my body, chances are 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1 that I would turn to my women friends for answers. So, would that not also affect craft beer? I view the world differently because of my gender: Fact. Wouldn't it therefore suggest that even activities like beer drinking might also be affected by my perspective and experience?
Exclusion is one thing of course. If, for example, a man was to approach my group and express that he was interested in experiencing what we were all about, I would have to ask his motivations. Since the focus of any "group" whether it be gamers, beer enthusiasts, business networking, etc is to join with other like minded people to conduct conversation about things that stem from that perspective, you would think it would be preferable to stay on topic. But if a man really felt strongly that he wanted to be a part of the women's group to say "learn more about what pregnancy might be like for his girlfriend" I would say that group might be a good source of information for him.
But as a woman who has experienced quite a few gender specific transitions in my life, I assure you, my individual perspectives on many things as an independent human personality HAS been affected. And therefore, the places I choose to exchange information (including women's beer groups) are chosen according to my intended approach. And I enjoy having those options available to me. I'm sure members of Meetup.com would agree;)
@Jeff- Your quote (and stop me if im misrepresenting you): "they band together until no one realizes it was ever an issue". this is what i'm after, this is my hope for the future. this will not happen if there are beer-centric clubs out there who promote exclusivity.
ReplyDelete@hailey- well thought out! i don't want gender lines to blur, especially where personal identity is concerned. i also realize there is a time and place to address certain issues that relate to a specific group. beer is transcendent though. i'm a part of various tasting groups/beer events where people can get together to talk about beer, and then smaller groups-within-the-group can break off and talk about stretch marks or ball sweat. none of these groups would think to exclude anyone based on physical/emotional/gender-identity traits.
Wow julie...
ReplyDeleteI'll opine.( No need for anonymity- its Amy). I never thought it would be cool for Ezra to join LOLA because to his automatic sense of entitlement before even giving us a chance to get to know each other. So don't bring me into this without my permission or this is what you get. It's sad, "anonymous" that you didn't dig it but for me & at least a dozen of my new beer friends- it has been an amazing experience & the best year in beer I've had yet. Please, try to get over it all of the naysayers. You'd think after a year the negatives would just move on. Four years ago I got an I,Anonymous published inthe Merc about being treated like an idiot for being a woman at the Horse Brass. That was almost 3 years before I found a crew of girls I could hang with on a level playing field. So please, just grant us some peace. Most of us can't even get into PBS, woman or not.
ReplyDelete"I attempted to join LOLA’s forum on Facebook in early December to elicit some responses to this accusation, but have not been granted access. Perhaps my attempt to give them a fair say here was hindered by their lack of male acceptance."
ReplyDeleteJim:
Your quote above is a pretty lame excuse for not getting any input from LOLA members before posting this article. Several members of the group are personal friends who you see regularly, yet you never once asked them to comment, did you? I bet you've had several conversations with LOLA members several times since you started working on this, but did not even mention the article. Would that be accurate? In their shoes, which I assure you I am not, I imagine I would feel a little betrayed since you made no SINCERE attempt to "give them a fair say."
It is also interesting that you chose to single out LOLA here. Have you ever tried to attend, for example, a meeting of Barley's Angels or the Pink Boots Society, or does the idea of joining Ezra in taking pot shots on the internet at well known and established figures like Lisa Morrison and beer industry professionals seem a little more scary? If so, maybe you should give this issue some more thought.
If the ladies want to have a beer and organize some fun activities, why stand in their way? Or are you really that hurt that there is something beer related happening a few times a year that you're not welcome to participate in? Was it really that difficult or upsetting to find something else to do for a few hours "in early 2010?"
Jim Bonomo is a good-natured rabble rouser.....whom probably got the exact reaction he wanted out of all who posted. Let's also keep in mind that the host of the blog of which this piece was posted is a LOLA member. Jim is a member of our local service industry who kindly serves up pints to men and women alike with fervor and enthusiasm.
ReplyDeleteLOLA's success is honestly equally attributed to the enthusiasm of the involved women who take their own time and resources to brew beer for all, as well as the dudes in the industry who have opened their facilities to these women and kindly been an ambassador to using their high volume systems.
@Fluffy.. aah. another anonymous-y commenter with accusations.
ReplyDeletei shouldn't have to state that im on OFFICIAL BUSINESS to be given a peek inside the private LOLA organization. if these women are actually 'personal friends', why would they not accept my request to join online? i should have at least rec'd a message from someone saying 'sorry, this is private!'. 'FRIENDSHIP' works both ways there.
additionally, i have no obligation to give anyone a fair anything. unlike people who have all day to interview people, document things, and bitch on the internet, i work. i was not intending to write a book nor do i have time to interview a load of people, contact different groups, etc. would you like to work for me? your first assignment is to join every womens beer group and ask why no men. i'll be waiting. until then, this was meant NOT AS JUDGEMENT, BUT A SPARK FOR DISCUSSION. for people to be blaming me for allowing people to express their opinions is EVIL and UNAMERICAN. i focused on LOLA because people i know had something to say about it.
i'm not standing in anyone's way. again, my article is made up of quotes, facts, and philisophical talking points, not accusations and judgement. after your reading comprehension improves, come back and read it again.
So you agree you made no effort to speak with any of the members about this, right? And you agree that these are people you see and have friendly interactions with regularly, and thus plenty of opportunity to ask a few questions, right? How OFFICIAL can a question or two for a beer blog really be?
ReplyDeleteSiting only their denial of your request to join an online group is a cheap cop-out. You knew it was private and what the response would be, and that is why you only asked about it online instead of addressing any of them personally.
Nobody is blaming you for allowing people to express their opinions. They are blaming you for cherry picking opinions to put together an article you knew would get you a lot of attention while not giving the subjects of the article an opportunity for rebuttal until after the fact. You didn't even need to speak with any members of the group actually. How about gathering quotes from a few people who think beer groups for women are a good idea? What I am trying to get at is that the article seems intentionally imbalanced and unfair, and that could have been very easily avoided.
I must admit that I don't know exactly who is in LOLA because the group info is private. The only person I know on a friendly basis is Margaret, but because of sensitivity revolving around my previous LOLA-based interaction with her (DONG issue), I made the decision not to bring it up. However, if she'd like to speak on it, I hope she does here under her actual name.
ReplyDeleteOn that subject, Im sure there are plenty of quotes from LOLA people here, they just are choosing to be anonymous. Again, this comment section is open for all LOLA members to respond.
And what you call cherry picking, I call editing. Again, not writing a book. Not catering to anyone.
As for people who think these groups serve a purpose, I believe Alison's quotes give plenty of reasons why she believes them to be positive (regardless of her accusations). I chose five people to speak to not knowing what info I'd get, one person decided not to respond.
To get this back to a discussion... For the ladies posting in the comments:
ReplyDelete1. Do you feel intimidated going out in the Portland beer scene?
2. If so, suggestions for the guys to make it more Women friendly?
3. If men were allowed into Lola how do you think it would negatively impact it, or would it?
4. How would you feel about a "Men's Only" beer group or event?
For what it's worth I'm in full support of Lola as I think it does provide a good gateway to get more women into the beer scene, though I have to say I'd be bummed if I wasn't able to attend a great event due to it being ladies only.
Sometimes, a lady just wants to talk periods, politics, puppies and porters without receiving looks of disgust.
ReplyDeleteIn all seriousness, as a LOLA member (and the designer of that lovely logo you turned into a horribly, awfully proportioned dong), I'll answer the sensible questions here, from my own personal opinion and experience. Even though I'm a member of a group, we have no set "leader" or spokesperson, and I cannot speak for all of us.
1. Not intimidated at all, but I work in the industry. Sometimes the ridiculous abundance of breweries, beer, events, and the people who like to shout opinions about it online is a little overwhelming though.
2. N/A
3. There's no reason to add men in LOLA. We gather en masse so infrequently that there is no vast "absence" of men in our lives and our beer. We have discussions with men daily on beer and the beer world. Less so with women.
4. I could honestly care less. There are so many events in the beer community in Portland, one that I "couldn't" go to would have zero impact on my life or my opinions of those men.
"a lady just wants to talk periods, politics, puppies and porters without receiving looks of disgust."
ReplyDeleteand its the implication that a man would look at you with disgust (especially those i know in the 'beer scene') that is problematic and creates this phantom 'need' for exclusionary groups.
sounds like LOLA was conceptualized with non-exclusionary goals, shame where it's ended up:
"We are not looking to gender-fy beer, just make it more gender neutral."
http://brewpublic.com/places-to-drink-beer/weekend-in-review-girl-style/
ps: use a kolsch glass next time and the dong will look better
Sarcasm is clearly lost on you here, and this topic is entirely too serious for such an unimportant thing in this vast and diverse beer community. We're all involved in many aspects of Portland beer culture. This one fragment is, again, a non-issue.
ReplyDeleteI generally embrace sarcasm. I made a point of leaving that behind as much as possible to address this topic.
ReplyDeleteJim, a few thoughts about your article. I'm just as comfortable hanging out with the boys as I am with the girls. I've been a beer nerd for years now, and for a long time I was "the girl" in a large group of (mostly awesome) men. I don't feel like I was ever treated differently by the guys for being a woman and I am very lucky to have had such an awesome group to enjoy and share beers with. Yourself included. That said, there were many times I wished there was a group of women I could do the same with. (Or even more women in the group.)
ReplyDeleteThere exists many examples of psychological and sociological studies stripping down the differences and such of the men vs women debate/discussion. I'm sure they explain better than I can, but sometimes people want to hang out with people they view as 'like people'. Especially minority groups, (or in this case a minority within the majority.) And, yes, sometimes to the exclusion of those not in the minority group.
Few could argue that women are not a minority within the craft beer world. I'd love to see that change. I see LOLA as a way for more women to join the party. I also see LOLA as a way to meet new ladies who like beer, and through that have made a number of awesome new friends.
I'm curious why you want to join the group? It it just a desire to hang out with awesome ladies? That I get, but seriously, why a ladies social club?
One thing that I've noticed recently, If you scroll through the photos in most beer blogs, you'll see a guy's face in almost every photo, sometimes more than one dude. Yes there are photos of women, but almost always dudes. It's hard to not see representation of self out there, that's why I love LOLA. I can hang out with ladies who know (and care about) the differences between Amarillo and Nugget, much less the differences between lagers and ales. It'll be awesome when everyone feels represented and empowered to go do what they want to do, but until then a group of ladies who chose to get together without dudes to do beer stuff is pretty cool.
Derek- I think I answered questions 1 and 2 above..
#3
I would prefer if LOLA remained a women's only group. I don't think women in the beer world lack for 'time with the guys', but I do think beer ladies do lack a 'girls only' space.
#4
I don't have any issue with a dudes only social club.
Jamie,
ReplyDeleteThanks for a thoughtful comment.
I don't want to join the group. The 'group' I was talking about is the closed Facebook group which I tried to join to get some LOLA insight for the purposes of this article.
Beyond that, I've heard from people who have attended that I probably wouldn't enjoy the vibe anyway.
Often I get this response AFTER i write an article: "OHHHH well why didn't you just let me know it was for an article? we would have ----(responded to your question, let you in the group, etc)" The answer, for those asking, is that I'm writing from the POV of a regular person. That's why I'm writing on a blog and not for an ad-supported publication required to be a little more fair/tame.
I agree that women are a minority numbers-wise, but I really don't feel the need for them to embrace that status. It's such a welcoming all-inclusive environment and I know many women who incorporate effortlessly. The reason I'm not in a men-only club is because I would feel like I'm enforcing stereotypes and segregation.
Le sigh. I feel as if there are two topics of conversation here: women working IN the industry, and women as consumers of craft beer, both of which can be sensitive and controversial.
ReplyDeleteIf women think that going to bars by themselves and drinking craft beer is intimidating because they perceive it to be a male-dominated world -- who am I to say that they are wrong? If that is how they feel, then that is how they feel. I wish that they wouldn't feel that way, but I can't control people's feelings.
If forming an exclusive group gets more people, in general, to drink craft beer, then by all means, do it. Just don't expect me to show up to meetings, because chick clubs aren't my thing. And they have never been my thing.
I guess Jim nailed it on the head with his description about me. As far as females go, I am an anomaly. People have jokingly (or maybe not so jokingly) called me a gender-bender.
As far as the "intimidation" issue goes, I have NEVER ever ever ever once felt intimidated by men in this industry.
The truth? I've succumbed to more ageism than sexism, but even that was mild. It was more of a "you need more experience and practice" type thing. But now that I'm older, I rarely ever find myself being scrutinized for having an under-experienced, "young" palate.
Not one single man in this industry has ever talked down to me or treated my unfairly because of being a woman. I've brewed, bottled, filled and washed kegs in various breweries, including the one I currently work for. And the men? They have no issue designating the grunt work and heavy lifting to me. They don't coddle me, they don't step in when they think something is too heavy or too dirty or too complicated for me. They wait for me to ask for help first.
It is the men in this industry that have made my dreams come true. They are the ones who taught me almost everything I know. They are the ones who gave me work. They are the ones who support me the most. My earliest and strongest mentors are all men.
I think that is something that really differentiates the craft beer industry from all other "male-dominated" industries. The men of craft beer are beautiful people. They are creative, intelligent and loving individuals.
I will never bite the hand that feeds me, and in this case, that hand belongs to the men of craft beer.
Cheers,
Ashley
LOLA is a group of amazing, diverse & often queer women. It has zero to do with "intimidation" or Lack of abilitly to order a beer properly. It is soley about ladies, who already love beer on various levels of expertise having a beer with other ladies of the same mindset. Nobody in our group disputes the number of male "mentors" in this state. We just don't need to have beers with guys all the time. In fact, we don't want anyone who doesn't want to be there. If only you all knew how cool it was to have a 1hour convo witha girlfriend on the Phine about homebrewing. It's rad! There are several women's drinking groups all over the country. I wonder is they encounter this level of hassle to congregate.
ReplyDeletewomen have the inalienable right to gather together to fire open a few cool ones without being like totally eye-raped by christopher (as described to me by a women who had just been talking to him), or by any other dirty sperm carrying hop head...which is why i am introducing a fantastic new beer accessory - THE PORTLAND BEER BURKA!
ReplyDeleteespecially useful for those times when the portland anti rape glasses just arent getting it done. these beauties come in 3 shades of cascadian black and are available in xlarge, xxlarge, and jeroboam. all models have expanded eye slits to accommodate up to a true british imperial pint.
chug down your suds of persuasion in total comfort with the security of knowing that even christophers keen gaze cannot penetrate the luxurious 450 thread count egyptian cotton. (also available with flame retardant!)
now when you glide up in this seasons latest in beer burka glam, the guys at the bar will simply continue surfing japanese nawashibari porn as if you didnt exist.
oh i see,
ReplyDeleteyour implying that gender exclusive events can be a sort of halfway house to second class personhood in sort of the same way that the burka represents the consequences of allowing that second class status to creep in.
@Anonymous #1... Like I said, I'm an anomaly. I am a tomboy who can throw a perfect spiral, lift a half barrel keg, and loves to rock a neck tie and fedora. As I said on Angelo's website, my opinion is definitely not the popular one and probably not applicable to the majority of women in this world.
ReplyDeleteAs for female only organizations and events, I will say this over and over until my face turns blue, I cannot protest any group that is educating and encouraging more people to drink craft beer. Personally, I don't need to join a ladies group to geek out about homebrewing, but that is me and I'm a freak who has never has a lot of "girlfriends" to begin with.
I'm not against the promotion of women in this industry. There are so many amazing women doing amazing things and they deserve the spotlight. I just don't think that it is necessary to put the primary focus on gender. As Denise Jones says, "I'm a brewer, not just a female brewer."
I have nothing against the lovely women who have developed these women groups and organizations -- good for them! But I don't feel the need to join any of those organizations, and I hope that I am not judged because I don't want to segregate myself from the men. I wear black boots.
Getting a bit silly, closing comments for now.. at least until Women Only: Part 2 (coming 2012)!
ReplyDelete