Comments on Portland Beer and Music: Women Only: Craft Beer Segregation?

Getting a bit silly, closing comments for now.. at...

2011-12-23T07:31:33.066-08:00

Getting a bit silly, closing comments for now.. at least until Women Only: Part 2 (coming 2012)!

@Anonymous #1... Like I said, I'm an anomaly. ...

2011-12-22T17:56:36.588-08:00

@Anonymous #1... Like I said, I'm an anomaly. I am a tomboy who can throw a perfect spiral, lift a half barrel keg, and loves to rock a neck tie and fedora. As I said on Angelo's website, my opinion is definitely not the popular one and probably not applicable to the majority of women in this world.

As for female only organizations and events, I will say this over and over until my face turns blue, I cannot protest any group that is educating and encouraging more people to drink craft beer. Personally, I don't need to join a ladies group to geek out about homebrewing, but that is me and I'm a freak who has never has a lot of "girlfriends" to begin with.

I'm not against the promotion of women in this industry. There are so many amazing women doing amazing things and they deserve the spotlight. I just don't think that it is necessary to put the primary focus on gender. As Denise Jones says, "I'm a brewer, not just a female brewer."

I have nothing against the lovely women who have developed these women groups and organizations -- good for them! But I don't feel the need to join any of those organizations, and I hope that I am not judged because I don't want to segregate myself from the men. I wear black boots.

oh i see, your implying that gender exclusive even...

2011-12-22T16:45:11.972-08:00

oh i see,
your implying that gender exclusive events can be a sort of halfway house to second class personhood in sort of the same way that the burka represents the consequences of allowing that second class status to creep in.

women have the inalienable right to gather togethe...

2011-12-22T13:08:29.016-08:00

women have the inalienable right to gather together to fire open a few cool ones without being like totally eye-raped by christopher (as described to me by a women who had just been talking to him), or by any other dirty sperm carrying hop head...which is why i am introducing a fantastic new beer accessory - THE PORTLAND BEER BURKA!
especially useful for those times when the portland anti rape glasses just arent getting it done. these beauties come in 3 shades of cascadian black and are available in xlarge, xxlarge, and jeroboam. all models have expanded eye slits to accommodate up to a true british imperial pint.
chug down your suds of persuasion in total comfort with the security of knowing that even christophers keen gaze cannot penetrate the luxurious 450 thread count egyptian cotton. (also available with flame retardant!)
now when you glide up in this seasons latest in beer burka glam, the guys at the bar will simply continue surfing japanese nawashibari porn as if you didnt exist.

LOLA is a group of amazing, diverse & often qu...

2011-12-22T12:15:10.931-08:00

LOLA is a group of amazing, diverse & often queer women. It has zero to do with "intimidation" or Lack of abilitly to order a beer properly. It is soley about ladies, who already love beer on various levels of expertise having a beer with other ladies of the same mindset. Nobody in our group disputes the number of male "mentors" in this state. We just don't need to have beers with guys all the time. In fact, we don't want anyone who doesn't want to be there. If only you all knew how cool it was to have a 1hour convo witha girlfriend on the Phine about homebrewing. It's rad! There are several women's drinking groups all over the country. I wonder is they encounter this level of hassle to congregate.

Le sigh. I feel as if there are two topics of conv...

2011-12-22T11:04:57.546-08:00

Le sigh. I feel as if there are two topics of conversation here: women working IN the industry, and women as consumers of craft beer, both of which can be sensitive and controversial.

If women think that going to bars by themselves and drinking craft beer is intimidating because they perceive it to be a male-dominated world -- who am I to say that they are wrong? If that is how they feel, then that is how they feel. I wish that they wouldn't feel that way, but I can't control people's feelings.

If forming an exclusive group gets more people, in general, to drink craft beer, then by all means, do it. Just don't expect me to show up to meetings, because chick clubs aren't my thing. And they have never been my thing.

I guess Jim nailed it on the head with his description about me. As far as females go, I am an anomaly. People have jokingly (or maybe not so jokingly) called me a gender-bender.

As far as the "intimidation" issue goes, I have NEVER ever ever ever once felt intimidated by men in this industry.

The truth? I've succumbed to more ageism than sexism, but even that was mild. It was more of a "you need more experience and practice" type thing. But now that I'm older, I rarely ever find myself being scrutinized for having an under-experienced, "young" palate.

Not one single man in this industry has ever talked down to me or treated my unfairly because of being a woman. I've brewed, bottled, filled and washed kegs in various breweries, including the one I currently work for. And the men? They have no issue designating the grunt work and heavy lifting to me. They don't coddle me, they don't step in when they think something is too heavy or too dirty or too complicated for me. They wait for me to ask for help first.

It is the men in this industry that have made my dreams come true. They are the ones who taught me almost everything I know. They are the ones who gave me work. They are the ones who support me the most. My earliest and strongest mentors are all men.

I think that is something that really differentiates the craft beer industry from all other "male-dominated" industries. The men of craft beer are beautiful people. They are creative, intelligent and loving individuals.

I will never bite the hand that feeds me, and in this case, that hand belongs to the men of craft beer.

Cheers,

Ashley

Jamie, Thanks for a thoughtful comment. I don...

2011-12-22T07:08:53.099-08:00

Jamie,

Thanks for a thoughtful comment.

I don't want to join the group. The 'group' I was talking about is the closed Facebook group which I tried to join to get some LOLA insight for the purposes of this article.

Beyond that, I've heard from people who have attended that I probably wouldn't enjoy the vibe anyway.

Often I get this response AFTER i write an article: "OHHHH well why didn't you just let me know it was for an article? we would have ----(responded to your question, let you in the group, etc)" The answer, for those asking, is that I'm writing from the POV of a regular person. That's why I'm writing on a blog and not for an ad-supported publication required to be a little more fair/tame.

I agree that women are a minority numbers-wise, but I really don't feel the need for them to embrace that status. It's such a welcoming all-inclusive environment and I know many women who incorporate effortlessly. The reason I'm not in a men-only club is because I would feel like I'm enforcing stereotypes and segregation.

Jim, a few thoughts about your article. I'm ju...

2011-12-21T21:37:39.594-08:00

Jim, a few thoughts about your article. I'm just as comfortable hanging out with the boys as I am with the girls. I've been a beer nerd for years now, and for a long time I was "the girl" in a large group of (mostly awesome) men. I don't feel like I was ever treated differently by the guys for being a woman and I am very lucky to have had such an awesome group to enjoy and share beers with. Yourself included. That said, there were many times I wished there was a group of women I could do the same with. (Or even more women in the group.)

There exists many examples of psychological and sociological studies stripping down the differences and such of the men vs women debate/discussion. I'm sure they explain better than I can, but sometimes people want to hang out with people they view as 'like people'. Especially minority groups, (or in this case a minority within the majority.) And, yes, sometimes to the exclusion of those not in the minority group.

Few could argue that women are not a minority within the craft beer world. I'd love to see that change. I see LOLA as a way for more women to join the party. I also see LOLA as a way to meet new ladies who like beer, and through that have made a number of awesome new friends.

I'm curious why you want to join the group? It it just a desire to hang out with awesome ladies? That I get, but seriously, why a ladies social club?

One thing that I've noticed recently, If you scroll through the photos in most beer blogs, you'll see a guy's face in almost every photo, sometimes more than one dude. Yes there are photos of women, but almost always dudes. It's hard to not see representation of self out there, that's why I love LOLA. I can hang out with ladies who know (and care about) the differences between Amarillo and Nugget, much less the differences between lagers and ales. It'll be awesome when everyone feels represented and empowered to go do what they want to do, but until then a group of ladies who chose to get together without dudes to do beer stuff is pretty cool.

Derek- I think I answered questions 1 and 2 above..
#3
I would prefer if LOLA remained a women's only group. I don't think women in the beer world lack for 'time with the guys', but I do think beer ladies do lack a 'girls only' space.

#4
I don't have any issue with a dudes only social club.

I generally embrace sarcasm. I made a point of lea...

2011-12-21T11:34:48.687-08:00

I generally embrace sarcasm. I made a point of leaving that behind as much as possible to address this topic.

Sarcasm is clearly lost on you here, and this topi...

2011-12-21T11:08:49.492-08:00

Sarcasm is clearly lost on you here, and this topic is entirely too serious for such an unimportant thing in this vast and diverse beer community. We're all involved in many aspects of Portland beer culture. This one fragment is, again, a non-issue.

"a lady just wants to talk periods, politics,...

2011-12-21T11:01:17.843-08:00

"a lady just wants to talk periods, politics, puppies and porters without receiving looks of disgust."

and its the implication that a man would look at you with disgust (especially those i know in the 'beer scene') that is problematic and creates this phantom 'need' for exclusionary groups.

sounds like LOLA was conceptualized with non-exclusionary goals, shame where it's ended up:

"We are not looking to gender-fy beer, just make it more gender neutral."

http://brewpublic.com/places-to-drink-beer/weekend-in-review-girl-style/

ps: use a kolsch glass next time and the dong will look better

Sometimes, a lady just wants to talk periods, poli...

2011-12-21T10:48:22.307-08:00

Sometimes, a lady just wants to talk periods, politics, puppies and porters without receiving looks of disgust.

In all seriousness, as a LOLA member (and the designer of that lovely logo you turned into a horribly, awfully proportioned dong), I'll answer the sensible questions here, from my own personal opinion and experience. Even though I'm a member of a group, we have no set "leader" or spokesperson, and I cannot speak for all of us.

1. Not intimidated at all, but I work in the industry. Sometimes the ridiculous abundance of breweries, beer, events, and the people who like to shout opinions about it online is a little overwhelming though.

2. N/A

3. There's no reason to add men in LOLA. We gather en masse so infrequently that there is no vast "absence" of men in our lives and our beer. We have discussions with men daily on beer and the beer world. Less so with women.

4. I could honestly care less. There are so many events in the beer community in Portland, one that I "couldn't" go to would have zero impact on my life or my opinions of those men.

To get this back to a discussion... For the ladies...

2011-12-21T10:25:30.672-08:00

To get this back to a discussion... For the ladies posting in the comments:
1. Do you feel intimidated going out in the Portland beer scene?
2. If so, suggestions for the guys to make it more Women friendly?
3. If men were allowed into Lola how do you think it would negatively impact it, or would it?
4. How would you feel about a "Men's Only" beer group or event?

For what it's worth I'm in full support of Lola as I think it does provide a good gateway to get more women into the beer scene, though I have to say I'd be bummed if I wasn't able to attend a great event due to it being ladies only.

I must admit that I don't know exactly who is ...

2011-12-21T09:37:23.091-08:00

I must admit that I don't know exactly who is in LOLA because the group info is private. The only person I know on a friendly basis is Margaret, but because of sensitivity revolving around my previous LOLA-based interaction with her (DONG issue), I made the decision not to bring it up. However, if she'd like to speak on it, I hope she does here under her actual name.

On that subject, Im sure there are plenty of quotes from LOLA people here, they just are choosing to be anonymous. Again, this comment section is open for all LOLA members to respond.

And what you call cherry picking, I call editing. Again, not writing a book. Not catering to anyone.

As for people who think these groups serve a purpose, I believe Alison's quotes give plenty of reasons why she believes them to be positive (regardless of her accusations). I chose five people to speak to not knowing what info I'd get, one person decided not to respond.

So you agree you made no effort to speak with any ...

2011-12-21T09:20:12.205-08:00

So you agree you made no effort to speak with any of the members about this, right? And you agree that these are people you see and have friendly interactions with regularly, and thus plenty of opportunity to ask a few questions, right? How OFFICIAL can a question or two for a beer blog really be?

Siting only their denial of your request to join an online group is a cheap cop-out. You knew it was private and what the response would be, and that is why you only asked about it online instead of addressing any of them personally.

Nobody is blaming you for allowing people to express their opinions. They are blaming you for cherry picking opinions to put together an article you knew would get you a lot of attention while not giving the subjects of the article an opportunity for rebuttal until after the fact. You didn't even need to speak with any members of the group actually. How about gathering quotes from a few people who think beer groups for women are a good idea? What I am trying to get at is that the article seems intentionally imbalanced and unfair, and that could have been very easily avoided.

@Fluffy.. aah. another anonymous-y commenter with ...

2011-12-21T08:52:09.802-08:00

@Fluffy.. aah. another anonymous-y commenter with accusations.

i shouldn't have to state that im on OFFICIAL BUSINESS to be given a peek inside the private LOLA organization. if these women are actually 'personal friends', why would they not accept my request to join online? i should have at least rec'd a message from someone saying 'sorry, this is private!'. 'FRIENDSHIP' works both ways there.

additionally, i have no obligation to give anyone a fair anything. unlike people who have all day to interview people, document things, and bitch on the internet, i work. i was not intending to write a book nor do i have time to interview a load of people, contact different groups, etc. would you like to work for me? your first assignment is to join every womens beer group and ask why no men. i'll be waiting. until then, this was meant NOT AS JUDGEMENT, BUT A SPARK FOR DISCUSSION. for people to be blaming me for allowing people to express their opinions is EVIL and UNAMERICAN. i focused on LOLA because people i know had something to say about it.

i'm not standing in anyone's way. again, my article is made up of quotes, facts, and philisophical talking points, not accusations and judgement. after your reading comprehension improves, come back and read it again.

Jim Bonomo is a good-natured rabble rouser.....who...

2011-12-21T08:46:12.651-08:00

Jim Bonomo is a good-natured rabble rouser.....whom probably got the exact reaction he wanted out of all who posted. Let's also keep in mind that the host of the blog of which this piece was posted is a LOLA member. Jim is a member of our local service industry who kindly serves up pints to men and women alike with fervor and enthusiasm.

LOLA's success is honestly equally attributed to the enthusiasm of the involved women who take their own time and resources to brew beer for all, as well as the dudes in the industry who have opened their facilities to these women and kindly been an ambassador to using their high volume systems.

"I attempted to join LOLA’s forum on Facebook...

2011-12-21T08:26:08.306-08:00

"I attempted to join LOLA’s forum on Facebook in early December to elicit some responses to this accusation, but have not been granted access. Perhaps my attempt to give them a fair say here was hindered by their lack of male acceptance."

Jim:

Your quote above is a pretty lame excuse for not getting any input from LOLA members before posting this article. Several members of the group are personal friends who you see regularly, yet you never once asked them to comment, did you? I bet you've had several conversations with LOLA members several times since you started working on this, but did not even mention the article. Would that be accurate? In their shoes, which I assure you I am not, I imagine I would feel a little betrayed since you made no SINCERE attempt to "give them a fair say."

It is also interesting that you chose to single out LOLA here. Have you ever tried to attend, for example, a meeting of Barley's Angels or the Pink Boots Society, or does the idea of joining Ezra in taking pot shots on the internet at well known and established figures like Lisa Morrison and beer industry professionals seem a little more scary? If so, maybe you should give this issue some more thought.

If the ladies want to have a beer and organize some fun activities, why stand in their way? Or are you really that hurt that there is something beer related happening a few times a year that you're not welcome to participate in? Was it really that difficult or upsetting to find something else to do for a few hours "in early 2010?"

I'll opine.( No need for anonymity- its Amy). ...

2011-12-21T08:16:48.823-08:00

I'll opine.( No need for anonymity- its Amy). I never thought it would be cool for Ezra to join LOLA because to his automatic sense of entitlement before even giving us a chance to get to know each other. So don't bring me into this without my permission or this is what you get. It's sad, "anonymous" that you didn't dig it but for me & at least a dozen of my new beer friends- it has been an amazing experience & the best year in beer I've had yet. Please, try to get over it all of the naysayers. You'd think after a year the negatives would just move on. Four years ago I got an I,Anonymous published inthe Merc about being treated like an idiot for being a woman at the Horse Brass. That was almost 3 years before I found a crew of girls I could hang with on a level playing field. So please, just grant us some peace. Most of us can't even get into PBS, woman or not.

Wow julie...

2011-12-20T22:29:18.962-08:00

Wow julie...

@Jeff- Your quote (and stop me if im misrepresenti...

2011-12-20T21:31:07.945-08:00

@Jeff- Your quote (and stop me if im misrepresenting you): "they band together until no one realizes it was ever an issue". this is what i'm after, this is my hope for the future. this will not happen if there are beer-centric clubs out there who promote exclusivity.

@hailey- well thought out! i don't want gender lines to blur, especially where personal identity is concerned. i also realize there is a time and place to address certain issues that relate to a specific group. beer is transcendent though. i'm a part of various tasting groups/beer events where people can get together to talk about beer, and then smaller groups-within-the-group can break off and talk about stretch marks or ball sweat. none of these groups would think to exclude anyone based on physical/emotional/gender-identity traits.

As a woman, a mother, a lover, a craft beer geek, ...

2011-12-20T20:45:46.309-08:00

As a woman, a mother, a lover, a craft beer geek, a business woman, and a craft beer blogger/promoter myself, I am finding myself torn between these two arguments. The fact is, our genders ARE different. And what wonderful and functional differences we have! To try and ignore these differences, is clearly impossible, and even down right ignorant. Sure, we also all have individual personalities, ways of expressing ourselves, groups we feel most comfortable hanging out with, talents, etc. Gender differences are not the only box in existence, and it wont be that last.

But are they really boxes? Could you tell an LGBTQ group that you should be given the right to participate in their meetings or face accusations of discrimination? Sure. But the LGBTQ group (who's purpose is most likely a support conduit for others experiencing the same life transitions) would certainly wind up changing their focus in a way that may in fact negatively impact the groups clear purpose: to discuss issues, and provide helpful hints to cope this those issues. Sure, that may be an extreme case, but I find it no different.

Is it better to ignore our amazing differences? Pretend they do not exist? Act as though we are a melting pot of souls that experience life in exactly the same way, and yes, that includes craft beer? Certainly you would not deny that we have inexcusable nuances: men jerk off differently, women menstruate, guys wear jock straps, women get pregnant.

So wouldn't that also inspire the notion that we both talk to one another from a varying perspective of understanding? Cause I'm telling you, from my perspective of course, theres a time and a place to discuss pregnancy stretch marks (for example). And the way I approach the subject, changes depending on who I am speaking to. But if I'm looking for helpful hints about how to improve their visibility on my body, chances are 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1 that I would turn to my women friends for answers. So, would that not also affect craft beer? I view the world differently because of my gender: Fact. Wouldn't it therefore suggest that even activities like beer drinking might also be affected by my perspective and experience?

Exclusion is one thing of course. If, for example, a man was to approach my group and express that he was interested in experiencing what we were all about, I would have to ask his motivations. Since the focus of any "group" whether it be gamers, beer enthusiasts, business networking, etc is to join with other like minded people to conduct conversation about things that stem from that perspective, you would think it would be preferable to stay on topic. But if a man really felt strongly that he wanted to be a part of the women's group to say "learn more about what pregnancy might be like for his girlfriend" I would say that group might be a good source of information for him.

But as a woman who has experienced quite a few gender specific transitions in my life, I assure you, my individual perspectives on many things as an independent human personality HAS been affected. And therefore, the places I choose to exchange information (including women's beer groups) are chosen according to my intended approach. And I enjoy having those options available to me. I'm sure members of Meetup.com would agree;)

Sort of late getting to this and I could just say ...

2011-12-20T20:04:45.787-08:00

Sort of late getting to this and I could just say "ditto" to Madam Von Sassypants (stellar name, by the way). It was enlightening to visit England recently and see how pubs are almost entirely bereft of women. There are a few hardy souls in there, but mainly it's a bunch of old duffers. When women do make their way toward booze, it's almost always wine.

They're sort of screwed. It's become a cultural thing--men go hang out at pubs and drink beer; women drink wine. I now get why Coors is trying to sell "chick beer" that looks like wine. Contrast that to the issue Nicole cites--women trying to hang at pubs alone. I have no idea what it's like to be a female beer fan, but I do know that the beer world is enormously masculine, and I wouldn't be shocked to learn that a woman might like a moment to enjoy beer in a chromosome y-free setting.

This stuff happens all the time as a minority group is trying to become a part of the majority--they band together until no one realizes it was ever an issue. I think we're getting close to that stage in Portland, but until I walk into a brewhouse and regularly see at least one woman, I'm going to go ahead and assume we've got some work.

Men have total access to beer, breweries, and brewing. There are few sectors in society as disproportionately male. If groups of women want to hold women-only meetings, I say knock yourselves out. It's certainly not affecting my access to beer, breweries, or brewing.

I asked questions, used your answers, and tried to...

2011-12-20T19:36:52.093-08:00

I asked questions, used your answers, and tried to encourage discussion. Beyond that, this is quickly descending into you scrambling to justify your quotes which frankly were pretty harmless and even keeled. Why spend your time slinging insults when you could get past this phantom misrepresentation and join the discussion??

Jim, I made it clear that I prefer events that are...

2011-12-20T18:27:36.438-08:00

Jim, I made it clear that I prefer events that are not gender specific and that I do not personally coordinate women only events. I then went on to answer your question: "What is the mindset behind excluding the men?". I apologize that I answered the question I was asked -- "What is THE mindset". Given the knowledge that I do not exclude men, I felt it was fairly obvious that my response was reflective of those who are in favor of these events. I was asked for "the perspective of people in your position". My position is that of a filmmaker who represents herself, along with a movie that represents the thoughts and opinions of dozens of respected community members. My answer was formed from discussions I've had with those who attend women only events, those who coordinate them, beer veterans, and those new to beer. In following questions, you asked me to speak for others with "Have you or anyone you know had any gender-related issues integrating into the local beer culture? If so, please tell me about them". I was asked to speak on behalf of others in one question, but critiqued for doing so in another.